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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/NCSE Grand Canyon Raft Trip

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. ELIMINATORJR 23:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NCSE Grand Canyon Raft Trip

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NCSE Grand Canyon Raft Trip (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This is either an inappropriate commercial article, or creationist harassment, or a bad joke. Filll 20:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS works both ways. If Project Steve is proposed as an AfD, the discussion will stand on its own, and I doubt we will lack for participants. Until then, the subject is rafting. We can't debate a hypothetical AfD. Acroterion (talk) 03:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"We can't debate a hypothetical AfD." True enough. But we can examine what "Happy Couple" is actually doing with (1) creating an unnecessary article (2) making slurs concerning the organization associated with the content of the unnecessary article and (3) making sure to diminish an established article about a notable topic in several places, including the actual AfD for the article he himself created. You noted the invocation of Project Steve before, but it seemed to me that your evaluation of its significance was not correct. Rather than going another round with the, "But we're not discussing Project Steve" thing, we could just agree to disagree on what "Happy Couple"'s unsubtle allusions to it mean. --Wesley R. Elsberry 04:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My point is only that Project Steve has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, per Wikipedia policy. Acroterion (talk) 18:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The NYT article is about the Grand Canyon and its role in the creationism/evolution debate, it is not about the NCSE trip. At best the NCSE raft trip recieves incidental mention which is certainly not sufficient to establish notability. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 23:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry to disagree, but the Jodi Wilgoren NYT article I linked is essentially a split-it-down-the-middle report on two rafting groups, one an antievolutionist group guided by Tom Vail, and the other the NCSE-sponsored trip. Calling half the article "incidental mention" doesn't strike me as an accurate summary. --Wesley R. Elsberry 23:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please note that NCSE did not create the article. The article was created by "Happy Couple". Look at "Happy Couple"'s comments about NCSE on this page. I see a pattern here; "Happy Couple" is not trying to do NCSE any favors. Failure to recognize that it's a setup will make "Happy Couple" that much happier. --Wesley R. Elsberry 23:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy delete as spam. This is simply an advert see here. BlueValour 12:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This article was created expressly to provoke supporters of evolution by a creationist troll, who is probably a sock puppet, and probably has been banned here repeatedly before. Making such trivial articles is an effort to cast the anti-creationists in a bad light, and make fun of them. If we keep it, it makes pro-scientists look silly and petty. If we get rid of it, this sock puppet will attempt to claim we should get rid of Project Steve on the same basis. It is just an effort to make us jump through a creationist's hoops and mock us all. I say delete all his articles, and block this troll.
The topic of this article is not particularly noteworthy, even though it was published in the New York Times, as noted above. It is not particularly relevant. It is not really encyclopedic. Sure Wikipedia can include this level of fine detail, but should it? Should we have a separate article on every field trip you can go on hosted by a creationist? Every type of lecture given by a park ranger in every national park in the world? Every individual park ranger and their specialties? Surely at some point this starts to reach the point of vanishing returns, even if Dr. Scott is a notable figure in this case. To leave this as a real article is to cater to a creationist troll. It is more akin to advertising, which we should attempt to minimize in Wikipedia, particularly in this instance.--Filll 13:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Whatever the motives of the creator of this article, the material is not noteworthy enough for its own article. If WP went through all information with this fine a sieve, the sheer volume of information would become unmanageable (some argue that it already is!). If the material must be here, then let's move it to Eugenie C. Scott or somewhere. -- WolfieInu 12:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Non-notable activity. While giving the outward appearance of an advertisement, it does seem to written as to have a subtle air of making those involved appear hypocritical and illogical, for example that the lady presenting the creatonist view is "a leading critic of creationism" according to her article. Yep, nothing ensures a lively debate quite like everybody being on the same side. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and improve - I think in order to keep, some editor(s) should commit to making this an encyclopedic article. At the moment it is mainly a direct quotation of the ironic tone of ncseweb.org &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 11:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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